Circular Design w praktyce - wywiad z Freedom

One is not complete without the other. Let’s say that, in an average American kitchen, there are 10 coffee mugs and as many thermo-cups. People don’t bring them to a local coffee shop, when they want a cup of coffee to go. Even if you designed a Ferrari of coffee mugs, the most awesome coffee mug on Earth, it’s still highly likely to sit inside a customer’s kitchen cupboard. This is just an example of the many behavioral changes that we are trying to deal with. Our goal is to create a service that can painlessly incorporate reuse into the system.

Could you tell us about the types of groceries that you deliver? Do you cover the whole spectrum? Are there any products that you avoid working with?

Our goal is to be able to deliver from 70 to 80% of what any North American home would need. At this point I don't think we are ready to say that we're a one-stop shop and we can do 100% of what our customers need, but we definitely provide them with those 70 or 75%. We supply customers with certain types of spices, baked goods, pasta, dried goods, lentils, flour, beans, etc. We are primarily focused on offering high quality vegan and vegetarian food and we want to bring those products into homes without any type of single use and toxic packaging.

It sounds like in the process you have to build the network and establish relationships with food producers and suppliers. What was the most challenging part about describing the idea and getting them on board with it?

When you are working with food producers and farmers, you realize that they have done business with grocery stores for the last 10, 20 or 50 years and they have their way of doing things. Even if there were changes, those changes have happened within the confines and limitations of certain types of supply chains. Those supply chains themselves have not been innovated to tackle the climate emergency. Neither have they transitioned to understanding what the role of emissions is, caused by the packaging industry. We bring up those hard topics. Some people understand us and want to become a part of what we build. Some people don’t, because they like the way things are. In the process of building our network, we have to understand who those people are, who want to work with us and do something phenomenal together, and also we try to figure out how to reach the rest.

Have you noticed any strategies or arguments that work better than others? What makes them willing to cooperate with you on such a different basis than they cooperate with other buyers?

That’s also work in progress. I wish I could tell you that there's a toolkit or a five-step process of talking to any producer, maker or farm, and if you do these five things, they will join you. I wish I had that ready-to-go answer, but at this point in time the conversation is different in each case.Anna: Does it mean that from time to time for individual suppliers or producers you have to design a unique procedure on how to deliver groceries without packaging?Freedom: That's right. Our goal is to standardize as much as we possibly can, but depending on what products they make, they might need different types of packaging.

What is lacking in the market that would make sustainable service launch and implementation easier? Which solutions are missing from your perspective? What are those pieces that you have to invent yourself?

Infrastructure. There is no infrastructure for what we are doing. When electric cars are launched, companies which build those cars have to figure out where people can charge them. Same goes for reuse systems and circular economy programs. Where is the infrastructure for cleaning reusables? Where are the facilities that can help innovation grow and compete in a really fierce marketplace where disposable plastic packaging is dirt cheap? The environmental cost of making disposables is really high, it takes a toll on the planet on so many levels, but when it reaches a consumer, it is dirt cheap. Plastic packaging and food producers were able to build a policy framework, a narrative and an infrastructure to deliver products, which have been causing devastating harm to the environment and human health. When it reaches you and me, though, it's dirt cheap! How did that happen? Now we are trying to do things right, but since we don't have the infrastructure for it, it's really difficult. This is the issue that needs to be addressed. To eliminate packaging pollution we need investment in infrastructure from the developed world.

Have you been able to find high quality reusable packaging available on the mass market? If yes, what are those materials?

We have to define ‘reusable products’ more specifically. Are they reusables that a person owns or they are reusables for a company that wants to integrate them into their service? Or maybe they are reusables provided by a city government that wants to facilitate a city-wide reusable program, because they want to stop paying through their nose for trash and quote-in-quote ‘recycling’? If you look at the global south, there have been mass markets for reusables at a large scale since forever. I grew up in India, stainless steel reusables have been in my family since my mom was a baby. There is a mass market for it. It's a country of 1.2 billion people, where every home has stainless steel reusables. There are similar examples of mass markets in many parts of the global south. That's why we have to define it more specifically: reusable for whom, for what and in what context. The answer will depend on each of those aspects.

I'm trying to imagine myself being your customer. What does it take for me to use your services comfortably? What am I dealing with?

We deliver about 750 products along the following categories: coffee, tea, breads, bakery, flowers, beans, rice, pasta, bigger elements of green, fresh produce. We've got cleaning products, soaps, and shampoos. An electric vehicle drives to your door and leaves bags outside your home. All those bags are made of high quality reusable materials, such as cotton and linen (?). If you order pasta, it comes in a glass jar with a stainless steel lid, same goes for products like baking powder. If you ordered small-size vegetables, they're all packed in a small cotton reusable bag. That's what your grocery bag would look like. If we cannot figure out how it can be delivered in a reusable, we do not offer that product. Outside your door there are also your return reusables from your previous delivery. When we deliver, we also collect reusables from your previous order. You would never have to throw anything into a trash can because everything you order comes in a reusable container that you can return. Now think about a standard grocery delivery: if your home orders 50 items a week, there’s probably 60-70 pieces of disposable packaging from your home alone that need to be taken care of. We aim to solve this problem at the root.

Let’s talk about the price points for sustainable products and services. Here in Poland there is a common belief that an average consumer is not ready to pay premium prices for sustainable solutions and freshly developed infrastructure. Do you think it is the same way in the US? Can we avoid charging premium prices for something built in a sustainable way?

First of all, I really don't know if we can continue having ‘sustainability’ as a destination. At this point in time global temperature rise is unparalleled. ‘Sustainable’ is not good enough and it is not going to solve the problem. We have to use different vocabulary and think about the ways to restore, regenerate, re-engineer, rebuild and re-imagine systems to respond to the climate emergency. So, I want to think about the words ‘regenerative’, ‘restorative’ and ‘rejuvenating’ instead of ‘sustainable’. Second, your question is rather related to how we are going to compete with the market forces. Since the infrastructure is not in place, there is no simple answer to this question. There is a high cost to what we are doing at Getgroceries, it's undeniable. The cost is high because we are changing the way systems are designed and run. This change is extremely labor-intensive on many levels. We replace machines that wrap 200 products in a plastic foil in a minute with a way-more labor intensive process. The costs inevitably go up, but there is a part of the market that is able to absorb those costs. My thinking is to work with that part of the market. While you work with that part of the market in your next level of expansion, figure out how to reduce costs without compromising on quality and then work with the next segment of the market. Keep doing this until you reach your desired level of optimization. It’s sad that now all of these solutions with reusables are mostly available to people who have money. If there was infrastructure, I could deliver groceries in areas that are lower on social economic standards. For me this is not a question of if we can do it, it's a question of when. This is where policy could play an important role. If we want to transition the United States to a zero-waste future, we can't ignore 75% of the country's population who cannot afford these services. You have to make some tough choices early on, be realistic, be honest and at the same time understand that the only way to succeed is to reach those markets and at no point in time compromise on the types of materials you use. It is going to be expensive at first, but we have to deal with it and figure out how to make it cheaper. We work in an inherently unjust business economy, where something so (environmentally?) expensive as plastic is coming in your hands dirt cheap. That's unjust! We want to fight the issue of plastics and disposables on every level. It is natural to start small, make it work and then think about ways to scale the solution.

Let’s talk about your path. What do you think are those capacities that enabled you to come up with the business idea for ‘Get Groceries’ and make it happen?

There are two parts. First, I have always been a systems thinker, that's just the way I roll. That has definitely enabled me to think about things not just from the design point of view, but rather look at complexities. I always look for folks for my team who, even if they're not deep system thinkers, they can at least join the dots and be great supporters, because design is inherently multidisciplinary. The very meaning of design is to integrate, to bring these seemingly different things together and create a beautiful experience out of it. You have to think about integration, about where the smallest elements match the bigger picture. Second, myself and my family are subjects for our own experimentations. I don’t think you can design anything for anybody without empathizing and dealing with those pain points yourself. What a hypocrite would I be if I didn't figure out how to make something work in my own home? It’s the first move if you want to design a service for 330 million people and their homes. You have to be engaged and deal with the inconveniences, because that's where the challenge is. If you're willing to experiment, you will become a great designer, that's what design is about.

Which brings us our next question. What would be that piece of advice that you would offer young designers?

Listening to and working with activists. It's incredibly important, otherwise everything we do is incomplete and probably makes the situation worse, shifting the problem from point A to point B. Activists are in the field, they understand things and inconvenient truths that a designer alone would not. The moment you start working with activists, you become aware of harsh truths that you wish you didn’t know about. You become frustrated and think, ‘This is going to delay my project. Now that I start listening to you I'm going to have to add a few more weeks to launch’. The thing is, that most of the time they have a point and they have to be part of the design process that aims to really solve problems. Don't be in a hurry to take your solutions or your ideas to the market and don't call everything a solution. You might have some answers, you might have some hypotheses, but you can't really call everything a solution. To sum it up: listen to and work with activists with both humility and entity.

That's a brilliant idea. When it comes to restorative, regenerative, rejuvenating solutions, is there anything that you could refer to as your source of inspiration? What are your go-to resources?

That's a brilliant question. Just for context, I’m a self-taught designer. I went to journalism school to study film and communication. After that I earned my master’s in public policy and non-profits, so I did not go to design school to learn design. For me it was a moment of understanding how my love for Earth and all her creatures could be expressed into something meaningful. I’m self-taught in that way and therefore I’m always looking for inspiration and learning from people who could have done this so much better than what we are doing right now. One of my favorites is Buckminster Fuller’s ‘Operating Manual for Spaceship Earth’. He wrote something along the lines, that you shouldn’t think somebody else, politicians, for instance, will solve your problems. That's not going to happen. You have to understand how systems work and what your role in those systems is. That stuck with me and this is the way I think about design, mechanics, engineering and any sorts of problem solving. I also really love reading about animals and birds. I love reading National Geographic and Scientific American. One of my favorite books that I keep going back to is called ‘Super Navigators’. It's about all kinds of birds and how they make all kinds of journeys around the world. Mother nature is the ultimate designer. It’s ok if you can't go to a design school, because you can learn from how things were designed in nature and, which at times blows your mind. Did you know that elephants listen with their legs, not just with their ears? Could you imagine that a product designer would come up with this idea? Go into nature, learn how she designs, from the leaf of a tree to a drop of water. I think great things could be derived from there.